{
  "founder": "laanwj",
  "channel": "#bitcoin-core-dev",
  "network": "libera",
  "id": "4f9279832cc54e389f4a6909440c7010",
  "name": "#bitcoin-core-dev",
  "chair": "laanwj",
  "chairs": [
    "laanwj"
  ],
  "nicks": {
    "laanwj": 29,
    "core-meetingbot": 4,
    "hebasto": 1,
    "b10c": 16,
    "kvaciral[m]": 1,
    "sipa": 22,
    "lightlike": 2,
    "jamesob": 2,
    "meshcollider": 1,
    "MarcoFalke": 3,
    "gribble": 2
  },
  "start_time": "2021-12-02T19:00:12+00:00",
  "end_time": "2021-12-02T19:30:20+00:00",
  "active": false,
  "original_topic": "Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedmeetingtopics.txt / http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/proposedwalletmeetingtopics.txt",
  "current_topic": "Warn when we have only _old_ peers? (b10c)",
  "messages": [
    {
      "id": "3700839b72404efea9a308f91d19f311",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "#startmeeting",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:00:12+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "7fc55daebd7b432c8735ebe007f17e6d",
      "sender": "core-meetingbot",
      "payload": "Meeting started Thu Dec  2 19:00:12 2021 UTC.  The chair is laanwj. Information about MeetBot at https://bitcoin.jonasschnelli.ch/ircmeetings.",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:00:13+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "75271a3f9cf5488594ab0a84e7de3ba5",
      "sender": "core-meetingbot",
      "payload": "Available commands: action commands idea info link nick",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:00:13+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "08bc167caeb54423895e0eb331b77f42",
      "sender": "hebasto",
      "payload": "hi",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:00:29+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "9b450e3a2ae948e4a9e1542c0b22fc89",
      "sender": "b10c",
      "payload": "hi",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:00:33+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "b10d4e589994436297551d8ff9519268",
      "sender": "kvaciral[m]",
      "payload": "hi",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:00:41+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "fbd78b3862724857b9139e60645438e7",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "hi",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:00:43+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "ff0abace88384c8793f671a55d350ccf",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "#bitcoin-core-dev Meeting: achow101 _aj_ amiti ariard BlueMatt cfields Chris_Stewart_5 darosior digi_james dongcarl elichai2 emilengler fanquake fjahr gleb glozow gmaxwell gwillen hebasto instagibbs jamesob jarolrod jb55 jeremyrubin jl2012 jnewbery jonasschnelli jonatack jtimon kallewoof kanzure kvaciral laanwj larryruane lightlike luke-jr maaku marcofalke meshcollider michagogo moneyball",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:01:01+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "cbd41e28c3f94fcc844e0a1c00b5332e",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "morcos nehan NicolasDorier paveljanik petertodd phantomcircuit promag provoostenator ryanofsky sdaftuar sipa vasild",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:01:03+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "cc117b2a5e844f8abb842d98ff01fabc",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "one proposedmeetingtopic: Warn when we have only _old_ peers? (b10c)",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:01:24+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "4594b312ea44471fa99fac8b9faf3e4f",
      "sender": "lightlike",
      "payload": "hi",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:01:31+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "d5912344764943629cd6c8e2f99c1062",
      "sender": "jamesob",
      "payload": "hi",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:01:58+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "e64341c33c75431fb5e5749778834211",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "any last minute topics?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:02:15+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "4e22cab508bb407093e8a257516f37cd",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "#topic High priority for review",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:03:15+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "34c2607ba66c48e197742131d53e44e7",
      "sender": "core-meetingbot",
      "payload": "topic: High priority for review",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:03:15+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "e1622ee0070e4bb8ba839b27d33cce61",
      "sender": "meshcollider",
      "payload": "hi",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:03:18+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "6dd53aa438364ad5a161617afd4bd15d",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/projects/8  9 blockers, 1 chasing concept ACK",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:03:43+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "e944addda1014546b39c736b53c05996",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "anything to add/remove or that is almost ready for merge?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:04:09+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "c1260d02fe2f45248c2a59fab5b816f9",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "can i haz #19499 pls ?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:04:16+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "bbe72e5928ce4fa4b20deefa406b5a6f",
      "sender": "gribble",
      "payload": "https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/19499 | p2p: Make timeout mockable and type safe, speed up test by MarcoFalke \u00c3\u0082\u00c2\u00b7 Pull Request #19499 \u00c3\u0082\u00c2\u00b7 bitcoin/bitcoin \u00c3\u0082\u00c2\u00b7 GitHub",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:04:18+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "7fbb4bffc0ed4f65a0e3bdedab4da4d4",
      "sender": "jamesob",
      "payload": "MarcoFalke: oh cool, will review",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:04:42+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "301d876a3288461cad8f0f686ca9c6d4",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "MarcoFalke: added",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:05:01+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "0bea823baf8f49a68e55324810364d29",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "thx",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:05:09+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "22889a536bcc4de09d7c16324c31ceff",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "would it make sense to add  #23443? it's a blocker for erlay and the next step",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:06:51+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "473b4c36d88a4c329cb4062cfa553c56",
      "sender": "gribble",
      "payload": "https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/23443 | p2p: Erlay support signaling by naumenkogs \u00c3\u0082\u00c2\u00b7 Pull Request #23443 \u00c3\u0082\u00c2\u00b7 bitcoin/bitcoin \u00c3\u0082\u00c2\u00b7 GitHub",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:06:55+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "11c94898337346f9b26a5f9261bb1880",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "won't hurt to add it i guess",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:07:21+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "ecbd47acf74643f3a444b4141f8938aa",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "ok, will do",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:08:01+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "00c60a92f00741c0a9aaa008f066f811",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "does anyone have other suggestions? or wants to discuss an existing high prio PR?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:09:08+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "f8271851d6234a969b99c467915e45c2",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "if not, let's move on to the next topic",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:10:03+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "a813012cfe2a4bac8f1de97766e13eec",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "#topic Warn when we have only _old_ peers? (b10c)",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:10:12+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "d0bdd758f79748c0af3ce008d9d0d712",
      "sender": "core-meetingbot",
      "payload": "topic: Warn when we have only _old_ peers? (b10c)",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:10:12+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "4480039041ef433b904157e27e8f9713",
      "sender": "b10c",
      "payload": "I've posted a few comments about why F2Pool initially didn't include P2TR spends in their blocks to the ML: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2021-November/019608.html",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:10:25+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "1c8ea650ef7c4052836a7965cc98c158",
      "sender": "b10c",
      "payload": "TLDR: buggy patches to their peer selection. An unmaintained heuristic filtered newer Bitcoin Core peers. But, (IMO) unpublished patches are out of scope for the Bitcoin Core project.",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:10:32+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "9728371adc434109ae09501484528507",
      "sender": "b10c",
      "payload": "However, with currently only ~50% of nodes upgraded, it could still be relevant to warn node operators about e.g. only being connected to peers old that don't relay P2TR spends.",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:10:40+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "81d8a4cd5f13408fa463ac2138bb04b2",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "a first question is: how would this even be detectable",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:10:58+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "b79c9d059f65487bbcce96310b404954",
      "sender": "b10c",
      "payload": "Something like this could be a feature we want before the next soft-fork affecting transaction relay.",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:11:03+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "0ca97a4843704dcc85ef1072ff58329a",
      "sender": "b10c",
      "payload": "sipa: right",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:11:17+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "5258f8aaf3ff4ffe9a4bd2c466e7d6b3",
      "sender": "b10c",
      "payload": "Bump PROTOCOL_VERSION for soft-fork tx relay? service flag e.g. TAPROOT_RELAY? Flag in the version message indicate soft-fork readiness?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:11:25+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "a7dae469a9fe422ca3dc8a6441edbddb",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "but this isn't about softforks",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:11:38+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "e593326ca4184c3a904456843d51ea5b",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "it's about any change in relay policy",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:11:45+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "c1f29061c30c4b87be44e14c43b23bb1",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "though, at least the past few years, the only invasive changes to relay policy (in bitcoin core at least) have been due to softforks, i think",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:12:20+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "b875a672676c452380b06823e307629a",
      "sender": "b10c",
      "payload": "and the next question would be: How to warn node operators (besides logging to debug.log)? getnodealerts/getnodewarnings RPC?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:13:27+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "adabc00a688f4c698fdf18fae42c33ec",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "i think the best approach (assuming there was a way to detect it), would be to add more outgoing connections and/or rotate them faster",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:14:00+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "9c5c1fc2aba342dca2cae00b43da9882",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "we've become kind fo careful about warnings that are not relevant to most users",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:14:19+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "5a16a3636a334122be0fe1f66fa17379",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "we kind of do something like that when we believe we're only connected to consensus-incompatible peers already",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:14:30+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "1a34ed837b7b48ba864b432cb944d3dd",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "but detecting is kind of ugly, i think... because it goes to concerns like should we try to inform our peers about the entirety of our relay policy?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:15:07+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "deb04738a68e4a019c611e3ea78de11b",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "and i'm not sure the problem is big enough of a concern to even get into that",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:15:27+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "7710a880d1ea461682730bfda6d9bd34",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "relay policy is just policy, after all",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:16:10+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "67d3c4ca2c934a17aec704563134d8c9",
      "sender": "b10c",
      "payload": "hmm agree, if it would only be for soft-forks maybe a simple flag would be enough. but gets messy with the entirety of policy",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:16:30+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "2fca386e14dd4d6b8b40b7d0a2e2b324",
      "sender": "lightlike",
      "payload": "has this also been an issue in normal circumstances? The mailing list post talks about some artifical addnode scenario, extra automtic outbounds wouldn't help with that.",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:16:47+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "49745c767a094758adf30a725093201d",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "i do think some heuristic would make sense when broadcasting, e.g. when you broadcast a transaction and no peer relays it back to you",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:16:54+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "ebdebb8ab4ad412db3ac6f2b93d2823b",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "laanwj: that would be useful!",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:17:09+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "d9d08428bc3a4c4ab93f86fa5f3f230b",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "though, that may not be sufficient for this case even",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:17:28+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "6fd07858ac2e48648d3bfb8ce9f737f8",
      "sender": "b10c",
      "payload": "that would help in the sender case, not in the miner case",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:17:40+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "995ca05db79948c2a3c953c8b6359fb3",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "as it would only make the original tx broadcasters notice, not intermediaries",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:17:44+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "d10231a4b1a54bef9d4cf0001462b33d",
      "sender": "b10c",
      "payload": "lightlike: I haven't heard about any other case",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:18:24+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "faea160e72eb49e39209b3a7dcbf06c5",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "given that the first P2TR spends actually reached miners fine within a few blocks kind of shows there were no relay problems (that we know of)",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:19:18+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "2e06a085cb114ff6b8082e04818542ed",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "and if it's just unfortunate local configuration on the miners side, i don't think this would do much, given what lightlike said",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:19:40+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "e780ac26d0294306b299ff5bb09b7049",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "peers witholding certain transactions from you is a subset of the general eclipse problem",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:19:49+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "a183d61f9dbf48158ad9f720699483f1",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "if you're worried about that, especially as a miner you'd likely want to make sure you connect to a few trusted peers (preferably over overlay networks)",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:20:48+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "5f3f16eb427f46b0aeabfb8d1cdac474",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "b10c: oh i see, your assumption was that it would be warning operators, not just trying to fix things automatically",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:21:24+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "f93170ad58284e9497684148fd811cac",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "i think the only reliable way to warn operators is by shutting down...",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:21:42+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "4bc556a5550f40adbf6b23fefde7c2ad",
      "sender": "b10c",
      "payload": "that is definitely reliable for a mining pool, but also a DoS vector",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:22:35+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "e3b32ee76057448cbfe4bb1f95f66577",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "indeed",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:22:45+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "13138f47d3eb4ac29c243b83c6b991ee",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "shutting down based on a heuristic about connected peers seems kind of drastic",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:22:52+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "397825e5e5824fe294b313474a224cc5",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "yes, i only mentioned it in jest",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:23:02+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "9ebd4fc2d28d49a7b2f7e28a763ec7eb",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "you can do that of course (a watchdog kind of script), but i see no reason to build that into bitcoin core",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:23:16+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "e4e532ae13ff4b1ca7ddbeae0e085a05",
      "sender": "b10c",
      "payload": "one idea was a RPC interface (e.g. getnodewarnings) to hook into from your monitoring stack",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:23:54+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "2db33fc5ca5443838d9396dbec183e25",
      "sender": "b10c",
      "payload": "to at least have something well defined",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:24:09+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "bccaa931b5e34490865271abce8a8b0b",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "but if you have monitoring software, why not call getpeerinfo",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:24:16+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "6b9769134bbc4e26a208a8fcf5d64f66",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "there is already getblockchaininfo()[warnings]",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:24:31+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "6361c009bdfc42d99359138355366df8",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "yeah...",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:24:39+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "ef29324813bf403ca296fff3f6130f28",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "i suppose all the information you need to decide about node versions is there",
      "action": false,
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      "id": "ca46db225df54c8a8817ca7486bed484",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "it's never more than a heuristic, untrusted nodes can lie about versions, version bits, etc",
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      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:25:58+00:00"
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      "id": "ff43318a2aca442f985d43e2e74dae6f",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "service bits*",
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    {
      "id": "10acf93e5b7f4a8bb9b2389999975cb9",
      "sender": "b10c",
      "payload": "cool, thanks! This discussion was helpful for me. Maybe a heuristic for a sender if his transaction got relayed back to him... Everything else might be to ambitious and messy",
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    },
    {
      "id": "59453b818c58410db1028a0659466775",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "yeah i don't really have any good ideas",
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      "payload": "not relayed*",
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      "id": "c2555f1515f447feabfda9412241543b",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "(which is also what makes it somewhat scary as a built-in warning; i remember the spurious new-unsupported-version warnings with the block version bits when miners started using them for... other things)",
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      "timestamp": "2021-12-02T19:27:50+00:00"
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      "payload": "right",
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      "payload": "any other topics?",
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      "id": "450a313ce1a848629243df5240547ea5",
      "sender": "laanwj",
      "payload": "closing the meeting, thanks everyone for attending",
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