{
  "founder": "achow101",
  "channel": "#bitcoin-core-dev",
  "network": "freenode",
  "id": "fa23c25f86b6402ba11edc6eaa0a39bb",
  "name": "#bitcoin-core-dev",
  "chair": "achow101",
  "chairs": [
    "achow101"
  ],
  "nicks": {
    "achow101": 37,
    "lightningbot": 2,
    "jonatack": 9,
    "MarcoFalke": 13,
    "gribble": 2,
    "sipa": 18
  },
  "start_time": "2020-04-10T19:03:30+00:00",
  "end_time": "2020-04-10T19:39:12+00:00",
  "active": false,
  "original_topic": "Bitcoin Core development discussion and commit log | This is the channel for developing Bitcoin Core. Feel free to watch, but please take commentary and usage questions to #bitcoin | Channel logs: http://www.erisian.com.au/bitcoin-core-dev/, http://gnusha.org/bitcoin-core-dev/ | Meeting topics https://gist.github.com/moneyball/071d608fdae217c2a6d7c35955881d8a",
  "current_topic": "watchonly and descriptor wallets",
  "messages": [
    {
      "id": "2faed67fe17c4cbbae8815f70c18330c",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "#startmeeting",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:03:30+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "bd2aa61e1f5c46e5b5514af74e7779c0",
      "sender": "lightningbot",
      "payload": "Meeting started Fri Apr 10 19:03:30 2020 UTC.  The chair is achow101. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:03:30+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "c82a6646231747d1bf3ae1e0f768f51b",
      "sender": "lightningbot",
      "payload": "Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:03:30+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "0bfdc7ceca7b4c26bf33474a88c2f3ca",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "#bitcoin-core-dev Wallet Meeting: wumpus sipa gmaxwell jonasschnelli morcos luke-jr sdaftuar jtimon cfields petertodd kanzure bluematt instagibbs phantomcircuit codeshark michagogo marcofalke paveljanik NicolasDorier jl2012 achow101 meshcollider jnewbery maaku fanquake promag provoostenator aj Chris_Stewart_5 dongcarl gwillen jamesob ken281221 ryanofsky gleb moneyball ariard digi_james amiti fjahr",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:03:38+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "bc5e18bd7ad74cf7ac1aa94e153541fa",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "jeremyrubin emilengler jonatack hebasto jb55",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:03:38+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "2c26fb73eef8491194ed64b9eb7c7ecc",
      "sender": "jonatack",
      "payload": "hi",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:03:48+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "f43b55f960af4a42aeb16656bf6780fd",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "hi",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:03:50+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "937039b748dc4d0684938bc018a98d22",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "topics?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:04:13+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "76f0debf4a754b5985b87b4dfdca50a3",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "mine",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:04:27+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "38f3a2b87b324f0fa001d5b31f7c5710",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "I would also like to discuss watchonly descriptor wallet things",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:04:53+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "e0684e003c494a0895438befd7c5f958",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "#topic (short topic) Return last processed block in most wallet RPCs (MarcoFalke)",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:05:11+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "8a01c46e8891408a9ec07482239a108a",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "In light of #17954 and generally that the wallet may fall behind on the best tip, the RPCs should return the last processed block",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:05:30+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "45f88da10da447a19cf330392b231b55",
      "sender": "gribble",
      "payload": "https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/17954 | wallet: Remove calls to Chain::Lock methods by ryanofsky \u00c3\u0082\u00c2\u00b7 Pull Request #17954 \u00c3\u0082\u00c2\u00b7 bitcoin/bitcoin \u00c3\u0082\u00c2\u00b7 GitHub",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:05:37+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "0ee8c1252b184658a11207da7fbddb51",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "This should be uncontroversial, but just making sure shouldn't hurt",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:05:53+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "42926d887c244b968a9b98d56e1db335",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "All the wallet RPCs?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:06:25+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "68bc5f26686b4bd494776dfee95ab724",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "there are a bunch that don't return objects, and some that it probably doesn't matter",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:06:45+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "d61e68bf86214c64b6eb5e54740a1139",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "At least the ones that report the balance or otherwise depend on the latest block processed",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:06:59+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "d47340c4b683434a8b2621571f51ea34",
      "sender": "jonatack",
      "payload": "FWIW I've added fetching multiwallet balances client-side to -getinfo",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:08:06+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "ded91b32fef743da9741e3650049b7c2",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "well getbalance returns just a number",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:08:18+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "6a0b7c74c3174d998646b6c11f0faf41",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "so you would have to make that an object, which would break a ton of things",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:08:34+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "efff372dd9714b9184c32212a7f996b3",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "getbalances *smirk*",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:08:48+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "768cd6325a62403ca8ae0da0cf4e5ac8",
      "sender": "jonatack",
      "payload": "getbalance is superseded by getbalances anyway... could probably leave it be?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:08:50+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "f58ed48556364f2da00b9172c496c6ce",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "yeah but who uses that?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:09:19+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "d5de629c7dbb45deb7fb42d53b4c44f7",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "Maybe long term it makes sense to break the API",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:10:23+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "76628928d09442ce93662d3c54b07431",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "getreceivedby* also returns only a plain number",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:10:35+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "28b2cf720a7a4aeeb30c8b1fcfa4908c",
      "sender": "jonatack",
      "payload": "if the rpc doesn't return an object i'm not sure it's worth breaking only for that",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:11:00+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "136d42137e8b4cda88125286ebda435d",
      "sender": "jonatack",
      "payload": "api v2 (tm)",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:11:24+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "699989b4363f47e0a9d37d966d0017cb",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "gettransaction, getbalances, getwalletinfo should be trivial to amend, since they are an object already",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:12:13+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "d0ff28babc5c46fbbb9ecd7d11aa15bb",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "yes",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:12:41+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "30bf7f9d4ec44135a40c5937806abdcc",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "jonatack: the API version is always v${VERSION_OF_BITCOIN_CORE}",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:12:44+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "20ed7da396d34bdf9276ea5d9e6fbf78",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "Anyway, that was the short topic. My issue is here: #18567",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:14:21+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "3edb079b1c6043b0ab73c6a9d1a3d3bc",
      "sender": "gribble",
      "payload": "https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/issues/18567 | Return block hash with wallet calls \u00c3\u0082\u00c2\u00b7 Issue #18567 \u00c3\u0082\u00c2\u00b7 bitcoin/bitcoin \u00c3\u0082\u00c2\u00b7 GitHub",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:14:22+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "849d06f755c948599e58c1b1b02e35e5",
      "sender": "jonatack",
      "payload": "MarcoFalke: right... bitcoin-cli -version",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:14:29+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "3ffbb721cbe240d6b837370ad2709bff",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "would it be ok to just not have it returned for getbalance and getreceivedby?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:15:34+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "18f2ae31e98a46d594843a86a7689f88",
      "sender": "jonatack",
      "payload": "and getunconfirmedbalance",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:16:13+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "ccb366225944404dae3f38233269fae3",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "iirc those can include unconfirmed txs too so even at a given block hash, the balance can still change",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:16:34+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "937ae6ed255c43bd87d2c7fc8fe43d9e",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "I suspect most clients will ignore the value anyway",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:16:59+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "0673b531953d45faa96498f73ece419d",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "jonatack: I think that's the one rpc that this is completely useless for",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:17:08+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "cceb69bb4b1d4824b19aad1791cfd3c4",
      "sender": "MarcoFalke",
      "payload": "achow101: Same is true for getbalances (it can change between blocks as well)",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:17:19+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "b8cd6c2faa1949ec861c824447ac73d6",
      "sender": "jonatack",
      "payload": "yes",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:17:20+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "bd1a429e7b824e6997b838e14d2c1dad",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "MarcoFalke: sure, just trying not to cause things to explode",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:17:34+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "7206b584213548bba5bcad90bae1350e",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "anyways, I think we can all just comment on the issue",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:18:14+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "e124aacf059f418fbc9e1b7828da3d61",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "#topic watchonly and descriptor wallets",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:18:57+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "a111b3b03df14a639ffd3a530919a25b",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "yesterday I wrote https://gist.github.com/achow101/94d889715afd49181f8efdca1f9faa25 which describes some of the motivations, use cases, and issues for descriptor wallets",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:19:23+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "07317e471ef14883968980f37fdcdadf",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "one point that has come up in discussions is watchonly, in particular handling multisigs",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:20:15+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "925a242ee0c449f88ac4fc8e136a7898",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "where watchonly just means \"you don't have all private keys in your wallet locally\" ?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:20:48+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "bb0a159e39f34db1b92564136409c807",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "I think so",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:21:07+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "af8d904c60554fd8b825bee274895a4f",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "(i bring that up, because say in a HW wallet situation, just because the key is not in your wallet.dat, doesn't mean you don't have the ability to spend)",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:21:39+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "59f62749ba66411682952563a7b2aaf8",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "ryanofsky suggested having some descriptors be marked as \"watchonly\" and others as not, independent of private keys",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:23:16+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "d0f6100cf74b4d4d84e5d4817f5e9eaa",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "\"I wonder if in this kind of wallet, ability to mark individual descriptors watchonly or not, ability to display two balances, and ability to have RPCs that know which descriptors are intended for signing regardless of whether private keys are present might help with UX, and maybe let someone get away with just having have one bitcoin wallet instead of two and having to exporting/import between them.\"",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:24:14+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "3720494d30ba4e7fa85dae1da10091dc",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "i'm not sure how i feel about that",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:24:40+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "2ff907bb361e4f1a9f652061d991e699",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "there really shouldn't be a descriptor in the first place for the stuff you don't care about (and turning it into a watchonly thing to separate it feels like a hack)",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:25:19+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "6ddac1482a66432c9dbe4c80381a6dc7",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "i also don't have a better solution for how you'd go from \"create single-key thing first, and then construct a multisig out of it\"",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:26:16+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "57130df043344f69a598cc8c62d94f8a",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "instagibbs also points out that if we allow descriptors with some but not all private keys, bumpfee and PSBT GUI break",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:27:14+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "ccb5f4722418442fb152f0c7cea391cd",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "how so?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:27:26+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "58c32c349ac54ce7aef220c73501812d",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "so having a bool on the descriptors to indicate signing-ness or something would help with that",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:27:34+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "1e181bc6542946cfb1d157394eb7814d",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "but it does feel like we're regressing to legacy wallet territory",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:27:43+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "7c9320d4d8624ba0a167e4fd764e5f35",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "i agree",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:27:48+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "b2014de7b4c0462d8efa64df1a0cc103",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "sipa: they switch on disable_private_keys. so if not disable_private_keys, sign, otherwise show/copy psbt",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:28:06+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "5853259914e94e40a442c64d2fd22efa",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "but a multisig with some but not all privkeys is not disable_private_keys but will fail to sign",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:28:28+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "a6fe274fbaa549c487e42fb160c6cf53",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "wouldn't it be better to have separate RPCs for when you expect a fully-signed output vs PSBT output?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:29:06+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "2b1b09aa69c14cd1be8b55a8f05357d0",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "and the latter would always work, and the former would just fail if not enough keys are present",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:29:21+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "2c294a20ddc348eba4c87ef3cd23b199",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "the other problem is that coin selection may choose to include a multisig utxo that you can't always sign for so sometimes sending will fail",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:30:06+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "e4024c62b4274675828d179885d2d701",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "sipa: I think that's reasonable",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:30:14+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "51d6f2b1913048db813c579f24b48355",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "achow101: i think that's inherent to the no-mixed-wallet philosophy",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:30:38+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "dd7b17e851214f0ca6ebf46b98f0a7e1",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "if you really want coin selection to choose directly-spendable coins over multisig ones, you should have two separate wallets",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:31:07+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "aa0a27506f7545c9beb36ddea1368001",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "the idea that you'd ever want those two mixed in the same wallet was a mistake i think, and it's what we're getting rid of?",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:31:41+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "8389ab407d064464be642bfa49c26417",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "right. I don't think it's really a supported use case, but I'm not sure that we can/should block it",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:31:44+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "60b2f26b09254618904adcca4b04dffb",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "i think to the extent possible the behavior of wallets and RPCs should not depend on whether you happen to have a private key locally",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:32:14+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "de3c5aff528f4a1f83c8933df61775ef",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "right",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:33:19+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "8fa2a7d54419496aaf22078d52edb6f9",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "I think the separate RPCs and buttons idea mostly solves this. we can disable the signing one when explicitly there are no private keys",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:33:56+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "85abefa61a6841bba2cccc8ee9943df8",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "those functionality may also be useful even when you do have all the private keys",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:34:16+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "a563509e849549068ed8e2e47fd3ca50",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "right",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:34:32+00:00"
    },
    {
      "id": "b0187538d4da4b8bb29eb6bbe3a114a5",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "maybe you want to get a PSBT out even when you have all private keys, e.g. for a final auditing on a secure machine before broadcasting or so",
      "action": false,
      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:34:53+00:00"
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    {
      "id": "5943784469e543edb538dd4d6b9286de",
      "sender": "sipa",
      "payload": "(as they retain fee information)",
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      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:35:04+00:00"
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    {
      "id": "37e7fe5d1c5046c89ccf5713a2f3c3f6",
      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "and we should stop changing behavior based on disable_private_keys",
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      "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:35:22+00:00"
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      "id": "7e1e864fb9d443f89136ded2ab7a1111",
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      "payload": "yeah",
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      "sender": "achow101",
      "payload": "any other topics?",
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      "id": "194147bbdcde4e6e9243715612203bb2",
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      "payload": "at least for descriptor wallets...",
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      "sender": "jonatack",
      "payload": "sgtm (and good doc achow101, thanks)",
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      "event_type": "START_MEETING",
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        "timestamp": "2020-04-10T19:05:37+00:00"
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